Austin Morreale
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: Mary Ann Littell, “Health Care Behind Bars,” Rutgers Magazine, Winter 2016.
Learn More [2]: Patti Verbanas, “Rutgers Provides Hope for Ex-Offenders Navigating Recovery and a Life Beyond Bars,” accessed August 31, 2021.
Learn More [3]: Colleen O’Dea, “Reforms Bills Spurred by Abuse at Mahan Advance,” NJ Spotlight News, May 19, 2021.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Emma Young
Conducted remotely
September 11, 2020
Transcription by Rutgers Oral History Archive
0:00
Okay, testing, testing, testing, seems to be recording with the device. We seem good.
Okay, hi Austin.
Hello, Emma.
So, before we begin, I'd just like to collect the baseline data if that's okay.
Yes.
So– and of course you don't have to answer any of this if you don't want to or you can use an alias even if you'd like to, I just said your name but. Okay, so full name?
Legal name or name I go by?
Both if you wanted to.
Okay, legal name is Mara, M-A-R-A, Austin Morreale, M-O-R-R-E-A-L-E.
Wait, M-O-R-R-E-L.
E-A-L-E, yes.
Okay, and is that one full name?
I'm sorry.
Is that all one name?
First, middle, and last.
Okay.
Yes.
And then you go by, Austin?
Austin, yes.
Okay. And then, if you're comfortable, your age?
Forty-nine.
Okay. Also, if you're comfortable, sex or gender?
Male.
Okay, and then, of course if you're comfortable, race, ethnicity?
Caucasian.
Okay. Also, if you have any religious affiliation? You can say not any.
I should say yes. Yes.
Okay.
But don't quiz me on any of it because I won't know any of the theology.
That's fine. Is it a certain religion?
I mean, Christian, Protestant.
Okay, and place of birth?
Summit, New Jersey.
Oh, I'm sorry, you're cutting out. You just cut out really quick.
Oh, I should– there were problems here. Can you hear me now?
Oh yes, no, you're fine. It was just random.
This morning there were problems with the internet here at the church and I thought that perhaps they had been fixed, so we shall see.
That can also be me.
Oh no, it's not.
Oh okay, thank you.
Place of birth is Summit, New Jersey if you didn't catch that.
Yes, no, thank you. Then place of residence now?
Highland Park, New Jersey.
Okay, I mean, that makes sense. And, so I guess interaction with RCHP-AHC, is that (inaudible), the service you provide?
Sure, I work for an organization called NeighborCorps Reentry Services and we work with people that are either currently in Middlesex County Jail or who have a history of involvement with the Middlesex County Carceral System to some– in some part of their lives, and one of those things that they need help with is housing, so we, when possible, partner with AHC, to see if we can get any of our participants into affordable housing and help them get a start that way.
3:45
Okay, all right then, now that we've gone over the baselines, let's get to the fun stuff. So, what circumstances or, like, career path, per se, brought you to working with that project?
With Neighbor Corps in general?
Yes, that one specifically.
You're going to laugh but Angelina Jolie. I was– a few years ago just, I don't even know. I stumbled upon a video of Angelina Jolie receiving an award for like humanitarian, it wasn't like an acting award. It was a very small clip but in the clip she said that her mother told her that if she does nothing else in her life, she should at least be of use and that really resonated with me, because at the time I was working at a hotel and was doing well there but was not at all happy because it was the most, in my opinion, mind numbingly boring, completely empty, non-rewarding job I had done in quite a while, and so I gave myself kind of a deadline of a year to find a job that would allow me to be of use, and through my membership here at the Reformed Church of Highland Park, and connections made here, was made aware of the position at Neighbor Corps and they took a chance on me and said, "Sure, come on board. You have no non-profit experience but that's okay," and it's been three years and it's been absolutely wonderful.
Oh great. That sounds great.
Yes, all thanks to Angelina Jolie.
I mean, hopefully she hears about this.
No, I haven't thought about working that angle but–
So then, was this working in this project your first time encountering housing instability? Working with it, or do you have personal experience with it?
Not personal as in not affecting me or anybody in my family, so really, this was my first– working with Neighbor Corps is my first real opportunity to really get to know people that were facing housing instability and dealing with homelessness and inability to get housing based upon background or finances or lack thereof. And definitely, opened my eyes and made me more aware of something that I knew existed but, like I said, never really had a chance to get to know people affected by it personally.
So then, what surprised you, about– because you said it opened your eyes, so what surprised you about this work?
As far as the lack of housing and homelessness, one thing that surprised me as I've been working with participants is that some of our participants would prefer to remain in their homeless situation rather than go into say, a community shelter because they– I'm thinking of a couple people in particular, a couple of participants had been without housing for so long and had established kind of a system that worked for them and a routine that worked for them and they had developed such a comfort level with that, that in my non-mental health care professional opinion, I think that moving out of that comfort zone was really scary for them, because the unknown is scary and change can be scary and even if the comfort that you are used to isn't truly comfortable, it's what you know. I think, these two people I'm thinking of in particular, were just very– they feared the unknown and leaving that routine and that life that they had established and the thought of moving them to the shelter where they would lose some control of their situation and, in a sense, their autonomy was very intimidating.
Yes, sort of like the devil you know thing.
Exactly.
But what if something else is worse.
Exactly, exactly, and you know of course, going into a shelter does present obstacles and challenges. Of course, nobody in the shelter is supposed to be using drugs or drinking but it could happen. I'm not saying anything. So some folks who have a history of substance abuse are reluctant to try and get into a shelter because they've heard stories, they have friends who have gone into the shelter and they know what is either happening in or around the shelter and they don't want to be around that.
9:20
Yes, so when you are faced with that expected difficulty, how did you adapt or grow to be able to solve that or help them with that?
That was one of the many lessons in patience that I have been taught over the past three years. I'm thinking of one particular participant that we have been working with for a while and he, since we started working with him, was homeless for the most part and he had the opportunity to get assistance and to apply for different programs but, like I said, he chose not to, and at first it was frustrating to me. Thinking, if you have this opportunity to get off the streets, then why wouldn't you take advantage of it? It took me a little while to put that frustration aside and just realize that he was doing what he knew to do at the time and what he could do at the time and, as much as I might have wanted him to really move forward, he was not ready to take the steps he needed to take and I had to just meet him where he was in the process, and now, two years later, he has decided that he was truly ready to make changes and he's now working with a homeless specialist through a program and he's in a motel on a voucher and will hopefully be moving into an apartment with assistants soon. So, I definitely had to exercise patience and then realize that I can't control everything and that, yes, it's just really just a matter of meeting people where they are.
Yes, it sounds like also, to really naturally bring people to that point where they can accept that help. It works on different time frames all the time, and so that variety of time frames, that could go as long as years. Does the system that you work within support that? Allow you to have that time with them?
Yes, this gentleman that I'm thinking about, I've known him for, maybe, almost three years now and he's pretty consistently in touch with us. There are periods where he kind of falls off the radar and then he'll resurface but we– if we are walking alongside and assisting a participant as they need us to and for some people, like I said, it does take a long time. Others are ready to get going from day one and just knock things out. So, yes, it's very individualized and customized attention. There's definitely not one cookie cutter or exact time frame for everybody.
Okay, and you were saying that like he would sometimes fall off and you would lose track of him for a little bit, does that– so then, how do you connect with these people if you can sometimes lose touch with them? Like, how does that end up happening?
We really wait for them to reconnect while, at the same time, checking to make sure they haven't been reincarcerated or, this is going to sound morbid, but I also check the obituaries. For the most part, like this gentleman I'm talking about, he would fall off because his phone– he would lose his phone. He also has a few chronic health problems and he would have to go to the hospital and we were not on the top of his mind to reach back out to, but he was good after whatever period where he's out of touch. He would always either call or just show up here. Depending on the individual, we may try to reach out to– if we have an emergency contact person, and we have reason to believe that this person was at greater risk than others, we might try to reach out to them through their emergency contact person. But generally, if someone has been in contact with us on a regular basis and working with us and creating a relationship and they go off the radar, they generally resurface relatively soon.
14:07
Yes, and also how do you initiate that first point of contact? Like, how do you– do these people come to you for the service, or do you find them from just the system of them being released from incarceration?
Well, things are a little different now because of COVID, but in a pre-COVID and hopefully post-COVID world, we would get a lot of referrals from the social services department at the jail, at the Middlesex County Jail, and the ideal situation would be we would then go into the jail and meet them and start developing a relationship and rapport with them and they would reach out to us once they were released.
Oh, I'm sorry, you just cut out.
I was going to say, I cut out, didn't I? Am I back?
Yes, you are back normal now. It's just, like, the last five seconds I don't know what you said.
Okay, let me retract. So, in the ideal world, we're getting referrals from the jail, from social services at Middlesex County Jail, going in and meeting participants, learning what their goals are, what they need assistance with, and creating a relationship with them so that once they're out, they want to continue working with us and they reach out to us upon release and we continue helping them. At the same time, while working with the in-jail participants, we're also working with participants who we never met in jail. They were referred to us either through maybe drug court or a halfway house, word of mouth and they might never have heard of us in jail or maybe they did hear of us but didn't think they wanted assistance. In a COVID world, we aren't able to visit in the jail, so our referrals from the jail are down drastically. We still get a couple but obviously those numbers are low. So, the majority of our referrals now are coming from word of mouth, halfway houses, and other organizations that we work with that help marginalized populations or the homeless or economically disadvantaged.
We're talking about pre-COVID, post-COVID, which is very weird to talk about, I hope that happens soon but how has COVID affected your work? That's a very broad question.
Yes, at the beginning, like back in March where I was working out of my basement, we had very little participant interaction and the interaction we did was obviously over the phone or through text or email, but a lot of our participants don't have access to computer, phone, or text. So there are only a certain number we could still be in contact with and, since the participant care kind of fell off, we increased our activity in advocacy and partnering with other organizations and creating a strong network, community network. And then in mid-May, once I emerged from our basement and came back to work and felt comfortable meeting with people again, of course masked and safely distanced, it was like the flood gates opened. We have been busier in the past however many months, what May, June, July, August, four months or so, than we have been in the past three years, just with people– participants we had been working with, getting back in touch with us by just showing up at the office and then brand new participants, getting– reaching out to us.
18:05
How do you think COVID has, like– do you think it's created an increase in new participants since COVID?
That's a yes and no. No, because we've lost the referrals from the jail, but yes because, through our partnership with Affordable Housing Corporation, we've been able to get housing for maybe five or six participants and those participants have mentioned to friends and acquaintances of theirs, who are– they know from being on the streets and in the homeless community, "Call Neighbor Corps, they can get you housing," which might be a bit of an overstatement but so then those referrals are now coming to us through word of mouth. And we are currently awaiting the governor to sign a bill that would release a couple thousand inmates, a couple thousand or so inmates from New Jersey state prisons due to COVID, and I'm on a committee that's ready to provide reentry support when that happens, but with that it's going to be a complete, pardon my language, crapshoot, as far as many people from those couple of thousands that actually reach out to our committee for assistance.
Sorry, what you said brought up two things I want to talk about.
Yes.
One of them, I want to hear your thoughts about, I'm sorry I'm blanking, it's Friday.
Hey, it's okay.
But I am actually very interested, since you're on the other side of, like, when people are released from prison, what your thoughts are of how the country and different governors have kept for so long the prison population inside the prisons even though COVID would demand that you find a way to have them distanced– release the people that you can. What are your thoughts on that?
Well, the majority– we work– our– the requirement to be a Neighborhood Corps participant is incarceration or involvement with Middlesex County carceral system. So, the county jail was actually, I guess, ahead of the game. The county jails in New Jersey were ahead of the game when it came to releasing folks during COVID and then state prisons hopefully are catching up, and I am all for, of course, the release of incarcerated individuals during a pandemic, but I believe it needs to be done with some thought given to the reentry side of things. For instance, we were on a conference call with attorneys and policy makers who had been involved in the initial creation of the bill that's hopefully on Murphy's desk now as well as those that have been involved in the policy for the release from the county jails, and so little thought had been given to the logistics of reentry that it was so incredibly frustrating. It seemed– in my jaded mind I'm thinking you just don't– ultimately the prisons and the Department of Corrections just don't want liability, but there was no, especially with the county jail, there was no plan for what happens after they're released. Will there be, and this was back in the spring, but will they be testing? Where are they supposed to quarantine if they don't have any place to go and, of course, supposedly the only people getting out were people that had places to go, but I know for a fact the opportunity had been offered to be released early to some folks that had absolutely nowhere, you know, no confirmed address to go to. And with the state prisoners, a little more thought has been given but still not enough to make the execution of the release a success, I think, for the released returning residents, um, and I think my internet might have just cut out again. Okay, we're back.
It was really brief, I could decipher what you said.
Okay.
Still recording.
For instance, you're releasing, and this is thinking county jail, but you're releasing folks who don't have IDs into a world where, back in the spring, the DMVs were closed. So they couldn't get an ID, but you expect them to get a job, but you can't get a job without an ID. You're releasing them into a world where social services, you know, welfare is closed to in-person appointments and meetings and could only be accessed by phone or the web, but the majority of the folks are getting out of jail without computer or phone access and, again, how do you isolate yourself if you don't have any place to go. It just, like I said, I think, it would've been wonderful if a thought had been given to what happens when they walk out the door. There is– or even when it comes to Medicaid– could– is there a way to get them setup, to get that application for Medicaid rolling the minute they walk out the door as opposed to when they find a phone, or a computer? These are all incredibly important things, and it's hard enough to reenter the community during a normal time let alone during a pandemic without a doubt.
24:44
Yeah, of course. Thank you for those thoughts on that, also the other thing I wanted your thoughts on– was because earlier– the last question you said people come to you because they hear that Neighbor Corps could just get you a place to stay and you were like, "That's a bit of a stretch." Can you expand on why it might be a bit of a stretch?"
Yes, because this, like, series of housing placements was made possible because of the Luce Foundation grant and those funds have all been exhausted now, so there's just– there's not the access to housing. That's not to say that another grant might not be in the works or be on the way and I am sure that, when there is, when the financial situation allows, we will have another rush, but when people recently have been coming, I've explained to them, "Oh, we were able to help [REDACTED] get into a place and this is why, and this is also why you aren't going to have that immediate result." But I always say, "We will do our best. I will keep you on, you are going to be kept on the radar of everybody that's involved in the decision-making process as far as housing placements go. Go through the steps that you would normally go through, through welfare and social services but I will also work the partnerships I have and I just asked them to be patient.
Okay, so it sounds like what you're saying is when you can't through your direct needs help them feel– put them in directions where they might get help?
Exactly, yes.
In the meantime?
Exactly, in the meantime, act as if this possibility isn't out there and we'll work the proper channels as well as the more personal networking channels and I think I froze again. There's no internet. Let me see. Oh, sorry. And, still trying to get reconnected to the internet, for those of you who are listening to this recording. The internet has not been our friend here at RCHP today. If you're familiar with RCHP, this will not come as a surprise to you. Trying our best to get reconnected. Okay, sorry about that.
No, it's okay. I was just thinking what I should do. If I close this he's going to sign off for good. Is the recording okay?
I've been talking to the recorder, so yes, the recording should be fine.
Okay, great, cool. So, where you cut off is where you were saying act like these other– this one service is not available and go through other means.
Right, right, go through the channels you would have to go through if, say, Neighbor Corps and our relationship with the Affordable Housing Corporation didn't exist. So, let's go through the quote, unquote, “proper protocol” in-process, but also work the personal connections that we have with different organizations.
Yes, work all the angles you can.
Exactly, exactly.
29:10
Okay. So, great talking really in-depth about your work but we haven't really touched on personal stuff.
The good stuff. No, I'm kidding.
How has the COVID pandemic affected you personally per se, and I guess work is also personal, but beyond that?
You know, this is going to sound– I'm probably the only person in the world who would say this: it has not been that bad at all for me. I am– my family, we're fortunate, because our children are teenagers and are old enough to function on online classes on their own without assistance or supervision which is good because I would not be able to help them. I was– I've been able to work throughout the pandemic as has my wife but the only, the main stress has been, my wife has been a frontline healthcare provider and she left for work in tears and came home in tears pretty much every day until I would say, maybe late May or so, and her stress was enormous. But we were, again, fortunate. She's been healthy, everybody in our family has been healthy, so even with that stress and anxiety, our lives weren't disrupted all that much. It's not like we were going out, so the inability to go out and do things socially didn't. It probably affected my wife more than me, she's more social than I am. Our children were, during the beginning, were doing well with staying in and once it became restrictions eased a little bit, they are being responsible and I think I am freezing up again.
No, I can hear you fine.
Okay, they’re responsible and they were able to socialize with their friends outside and masked and so we felt that they were good spaces emotionally. I know it sounds bizarre but it really hasn't impacted my life and I am so glad and fortunate, and I know that it is awful, awful, awful, for so many people, and I can't even imagine, and I know that I am so fortunate, and yes.
I mean, what more can you ask for.
Yes, you know, but I guess that I'm aware that my reality is far from the reality of so many, and I'm just glad that my wife is in a much better space mentally and emotionally, and, like I said, everybody in the immediate family has been healthy, so.
That's good. So, that leads into the second question which is how has the pandemic affected your family like children, you touched on that. Then, do you have any insight on how it might have affected your community, your neighbors, or any change you noticed in the pandemic?
As far as our neighbors go, we're not terribly close to our neighbors. It's just, "Hey, how are you doing?" But the neighbors to one side of us have two little kids and have been incredibly active in their backyard the whole pandemic. So, I know they're doing great because I hear them out there laughing and playing, like, every day for the past few months. We've had some friends that did test positive and were sick with COVID but, luckily, they pulled through and got better. My wife, of course, through her work experience, the loss of patients, but within our little kind of immediate friends and social network, people have been sick, but there hasn't been any loss of life within our immediate network. Some people have lost their jobs or were furloughed for a long period of time and obviously struggled with that, and other friends are having a harder time mentally and emotionally with the lack of social outlets and access than others, but, for the most part, everyone is doing okay.
Okay, that's good.
Yes.
34:38
Then, would you– have you noticed, then, any change in the way that the pandemic has allowed houseless people to operate in the world or anything like that?
I think it's probably created maybe a little more awareness of the homeless situation as people discuss, “Well how did people without housing isolate and quarantine when there's no place to go?” Within the homeless community, there's some men that we're working with that would go down to the river or down in New Brunswick, carrying masks and to hand out to people in the homeless community or hand out if they had access to hand sanitizer or wipes. They'd hand things out, so there was a sense of looking out from the people I was involved with, the sense of looking out for each other and making sure that everybody is staying as safe as they can.
Yes, okay. Also, I'm sorry, I'm having a transitions are losing me.
It is okay. I am all about the non-smooth transitions or segues. No problem.
Thank you. I guess also– I wanted to talk to your personal questions about your creative side. Do you have creative outlets or expressions that you turn to when things are difficult?
Oh, I had such plans because I'm a writer who no longer writes and, at the beginning of COVID, I was going to get back into the swing of things and write, write, write. I don't think I wrote a thing. Also, my exercise plans fell by the wayside.
Oh, everybody's did.
After I ordered equipment and touched it twice. My yard improvement plans: I wrote them down but they didn't get touched. Yes, I have been really, other than working, and I haven't– and watching some Netflix, I've basically been a slug. Though I did go through a period of reading where I was reading a lot but, yes, as far as creating anything or generating any creative output, everything remained in my head, none of it made it out anywhere.
I also think, in my opinion, being creative is also just like getting more in touch with your creative side whether anything productive comes out of it, not that that matters so much but it is great to hear that you've been reading.
Oh yes.
Was that an increase than before, like you got back into it?
I've always loved to read but since I moved up to New Jersey and became part of a family with kids, the reading definitely fell by the wayside. So I was really enjoying having time to do that again, without a doubt.
Well, I really enjoy reading, so that's why I asked you that question. But what do you like ending up to read? Do you have specific genres?
Oh yes, my favorite, without doubt, is historical fiction, specifically Victorian, or London, Victorian New York City, but I also have been in reading some memoirs over the pandemic which I've been enjoying.
Do you have any notable Austin picks out of your reading?
There is a book, and this is neither historical fiction nor a memoir, but have you ever heard of the book, god, The Story of Edgar Sawtelle, S-A-W-T-E-L-L-E?
No.
I can't remember who wrote it, and it's a pretty massive book, and it's the story of this guy's life and he doesn't speak. There's not really a medical reason why he doesn't speak. He just doesn't speak but I fell in love with that book and that was really– I had started it pre-pandemic, and then kind of got distracted, and then got back into it during the pandemic, and that was kind of what reignited my passion for reading was reading this book, and it turned out that a good friend of mine from college had read it not too long ago and I had just randomly asked her about the book and she started raving about it and so we were able to kind of reconnect and bond over that book. But yes, it's just a sweeping epic novel, yes, it was amazing, so good. Plus–
About what?
It talks about dogs. Dogs play a huge role in the book and I am obsessed with dogs, so that held my interest as well.
I'm intrigued by this book now; I actually wrote it down.
You should, yes.
But, um, I am always looking for new stuff to read. But, um, would you classify it as anything then?
I mean, just–
Not historical–
Just, you know, fiction. I think it's set in the Midwest I do believe, so midwestern fiction.
Oh, interesting. I have to get into more midwestern–
As opposed to southern literature, then you got midwestern fiction.
40:40
Awesome, that's great. I know you said earlier not to quiz you on any of the specifics of Christianity or Protestantism, but do you have any– has your connection to your faith influenced you working? You said you that you were introduced through it, but does Protestantism have a bigger role in your life today?
Because of the work I do?
Yes.
Honestly, no, and it's interesting because Neighbor Corps Reentry Services is a program of a parent organization called Churches Improving Communities and our office is in a spare office at a church building but we are not a faith based organization, and I always make sure our participants and people I'm speaking to know that because, while some people might want that, others, I know, could find it off-putting and worry that we're going to try to convert them or influence them with our beliefs. So, I always make sure they know that, despite that we're in a church and despite the name of our parent organization, we're not faith based and I'm a member of the church. I'm on the consistory. It's kind of like a board at the church. Though, I feel like the work I do is kind of allowing me to connect with the community and allows me to do good deeds and, while I hope that God sees me doing what I'm doing, it's not, I'm not, I don't necessarily consider it a ministry, if that makes sense.
Yes, yes, that makes perfect sense and I also think there is something very wonderful about just doing something that's really good.
Exactly.
You were saying also this work has helped you connect more with the community. So, how is that? Could expand on how it's helped you connect with the community? Like, do you keep these relationships beyond the work you do?
There are a couple people that are teetering on the line of participant-friend, but I keep it on the participant side. I'm not going out– if I'm meeting with someone, maybe we might grab lunch or a bagel or something like that and discuss what we have to discuss over a meal but it's not like– I'm not going out and I'm not socializing after hours with the participants that I've known for a long time. I will spend time here at the office if they come. They might not necessarily have something that they need assistance with. They might just want to, kind of, chat about what's going on in their life, like I would with a friend, and I'll do that but I don't reveal a whole lot of personal things about myself and I let them do most of the talking, but they're definitely folks that I would say I'm closer to in that relationship, that participant-kind-of-case manager relationship than others, without a doubt.
44:30
Yes, I know– what you were saying just made me think about the very nature of your work. It does sort of– doesn't it sort of require you to have very specific relationship skills. Very specific social skills, like, you have to create a trust between you and this person.
Oh yes, trust is huge, huge flexibility. We might, for instance, I think it was– it might have just been a couple days ago, but there were three or four appointments and none of them happened but hey it's okay, you know, they'll call and we'll reschedule and we'll keep moving forward. So, flexibility, building trust, not being judgmental. When we do, when we have an initial meeting with a participant and are doing our intake with that participant, the amount of time we spend on their charges and carceral history, that's probably the smallest percentage of time of the entire intake because we're not focused on what they're done in the past. We're looking towards the future. But, you know, as we're talking to them and getting to know a little about their carceral history, we might learn they've done some things that we aren't unnecessarily on board with but we just– We're not going to judge anybody for them, and we help everyone to the best of our ability that we can, and also the ability to set boundaries is huge because participants will show up unexpectedly at the office and we just might not have the time to see them because we have appointments scheduled and we have to be able to say, "I'm sorry. You'll have to come back when we make an appointment." Setting boundaries in what participants ask from us. A lot of participants will ask for money and, if we have cash donations we can help them out, but we don't have a huge budget that allows us to be handing cash out and also phone calls after certain hours. The phone just goes off, so that the phone is not ringing and we are not an emergency crisis and a crisis response center. So, really there's no agency that we're working with that we can connect them to that's going to be open outside of those hours of 8 to 4, or 9 to 5. If it's a true emergency, they should call 911 or the mental health care hotline. So, I really now I am perfectly fine with turning the phone off in the evening or just not answering it in the evening and working within work hours.
Yes. Okay, so also this is another kind of random jump to question, but– and I'm also changing a bit for specifically your work here but in what ways, as far as you feel comfortable sharing, do you feel that the aspects of your identity or sex, gender, race, religion has an impact on the ways that you are working or the that way you worked with people if it does have an impact?
Well, I'm a transgender man and being able to quote, unquote, “pass as a male” definitely– I have white male privilege now. Also– and just male privilege period, and I think that some participants are much more interacting with me and talking with me then they might talking to a female staff member or female volunteer. Then, also being a transgender male working with this particular population, it does sometimes cause me some concern. I don't disclose to my participants. A couple of them do know I'm transgender but those are individuals I've known and have led me– have demonstrated that they would be comfortable and fine with me revealing this. Other participants make– have made comments about other people or people from jail that it is– I don't really want them to know about me, but I do kind of laugh because on my car there's the Garden State Equality LBTQ organization bumper sticker with the equality symbol and I just kind of laugh to myself when I have one of those participants who has made homophobic or transphobic comments and then we're driving along and they're in a car that has an equality bumper sticker. It gives me a sense of satisfaction.
A private (??).
Exactly, exactly, but yes, for the most– I was going to say maybe three people know about my gender identify and being transgender and the rest, they don't and that's how it will be until our relationship progresses enough that if it ever does, that I feel more comfortable or that I have established trust with them enough to do that.
50:52
If you are comfortable with a follow up question about your trans identity. When you first started working here, you led the population group that you did, did you ever have hesitation towards that? Did you have to grow around that?
The only time really there's been like, there's been, uncomfortableness or a, I don't even know, something that I have not really been pleased with has to do with at the county jail because, when you're a volunteer, you have to get your volunteer badge and they brought– I can't remember how often they expire, but every so often you have to renew them and my first badge, for whatever reason, it was perfectly fine for it to say M. Austin Morreale on the badge, which was wonderful and that's how I sign things usually, legally, but when I had to renew it, I don't know if it was a change in policy, change in personnel, but the name on my badge had to exactly reflect the name on my ID, and I explained to the administration I'm not comfortable with that because here is someone with a beard and presenting masculine walking in with a feminine name on their name tag and they said, "I'm sorry, but this is how it is." And the suggestion was, "Maybe you can quote, unquote, ‘accidentally forget’ your ID badge in the car and just get a guest pass."
Wow.
It's like, "That's an interesting work around but it doesn't, no." And so, I was like, "F it." I just started– I walked in with my full name on my badge and nobody ever said anything that I was meeting with and I don't know if they even noticed. I don't even know if they looked at the badge, but that was really the only time through Neighbor Corps and it– with my job that it was kind of an uncomfortable situation for me.
Yes, okay. Also, you could expand, this is something you can feel free not to share, or share anyway, but what, if anything, have you seen or noticed or experienced in your day to day, regarding like, and this is months later but those marches that were happening two months ago. The activism that came out of, I think around June, yes?
With the Black Lives Matter?
Yes, I also noticed, too, because it was also Pride Month that other things happened around it, if you had as much?
I was going to say, I felt, I remember June 1st rolled around and normally I would be like, "Happy Pride." And to my friends and social media and I felt very weird and kind of struggled internally with acknowledging and celebrating pride when the Black Lives Matter movement was so active and so much was going on, because I felt like that deserves my attention but pride doesn't, and I talked with some folks about it and they felt the same conflict, and I think we kind of, the friends I was talking with came to the same end point of, we can still acknowledge pride but maybe it's not as much of a celebration as it would be in previous years. Maybe it's more of an acknowledgement of the history of pride and that that came out of protest and riots and discrimination as well, and making that connection with the BLM movement.
Yes, I also noticed, too, around the time when it would be a celebration, there was more notice of intersectionality.
Exactly, exactly, especially with black trans lives, that was huge. Actually, we had a participant who we had worked with pre-pandemic, and she was– worked with her in the county jail and then she was released, and we met with her and then she kind of, again, fell off the radar. She was a trans woman and I just happened to be online reading articles on some LGBTQ website and it was talking. I can't remember what the exact number was but nine transwomen have been murdered this week, or something like that, and so I kept reading and I came across this name that was the name of the participant and I said, "What are the chances that there are two black trans women with this name in this part of the country?" And I kept reading and they had pictures of the women and it was our participant and she had been murdered, in a, I don't want to say too much without giving away her identity but she had been murdered in a nearby city, not too terribly far away, more than likely because she was transgender. That really kind of gave me pause and I don't really believe in coincidences, so I feel like I was meant to have come across that article and to be able to honor her life because, otherwise, we would have never had known about her passing because her– we weren't in touch with her family. At the time we were working with her, she didn't really have any friends, so she just would've been chopped up as a participant who fell off the radar but I was glad in a way to know her story and be able to honor her life.
Yes, if you are comfortable sharing, that's very troubling and hard to deal with stuff– and how often do you have to deal with stuff like that?
With a participant passing away?
Yes, with a participant passing away but you find out about it.
We have had, that we know of, I think maybe four or five participants die. The first one was a young woman who, we had been, again, working closely with a volunteer of ours and had been working very closely with her and she just stopped responding to his messages and phone calls suddenly, and maybe a couple of weeks after his last contact with her I was in court and ran into her probation officer who informed me that she had died and the circumstances were a little unclear. A couple other participants– I was doing my, "I haven't heard from you in a while, let me check to see if you're reincarcerated, let me check to see if your obituary," and came across a news story about a couple of participants passing away, and then one of the most– and I guess one that, besides the trans woman, there was a participant who I adored. He was the nicest guy in the world. Super hardworking, focused, really wanted to do the right thing, super positive attitude, great work ethic, like, great laugh, like, you just enjoy, like, I look forward to spending time with him and he was doing so well. He ended up going up into the hospital. He complained about having stomach problems and he's like, "I think I have a hernia. I think I should probably get this looked at." He went into the, I guess the E.R., due to stomach pains which he thought was a hernia, on a Friday. He reached out to me the next week, to say, "Oh, it's not a hernia, it's cancer, three different types of cancer," and four weeks later he was– he had passed away in the hospital and that one– Of course, the loss of any life is sad and terrible, but that one really stopped me because I was really looking forward to seeing what he was going to do with his life. I mean, he was a little bit older but he still had plenty of time to make a new future for himself and, like I said, he was such a positive person to be around that it really affected me without a doubt.
And also, you had various levels of connections with the people, but when things like this, not death, but other hard things happen in this job, how do you find a place to deal with it so that you can keep working this job?
I think I'm good and, based upon things that have happened in my own life, like personal life, I think I'm good at hearing the news and absorbing the news and having my reaction to the news, but I know that I can't let myself get mired in it and that's whether it's a death of a participant or just a terrible crappy situation that a person is in. I can't not keep moving forward and doing the work that I have to do. So, I think I'm good at being able to, kind of, like I said, acknowledge and process but do it quickly and not let it hinder my ability.
Yes, like lead into all those.
Exactly, yes.
1:01:57
Okay, so that leads into another question I had written down earlier. It was, and you might have already answered it in a way but what's the most difficult part of your work or what's most difficult about your work?
I think, like I touched on earlier, not being able to control things and knowing that some things are not– some goals that participants want to reach or some needs that they need to have met in order to have a chance at being successful. It's going to take, like, a long time. That there's no magic wand to wave. For instance, one participant, a couple years ago, he was sleeping at the New Brunswick train station. He had his bench that he slept in and that was his place, and I remember the first time I met him in person, we talked and he talked at length about his homelessness and about the difficulties and the challenges. Then, the meeting was over and I knew that he was just going back to that bench that night and there was nothing I could do about it. I think that's the most challenging– is that there are obviously restrictions and obstacles and time frames that we really have no control over, and to have someone come in and be, and this gentleman wasn't in tears but other participants are on the phone in tears or in front of me in tears saying how badly they need housing, and there's really nothing that we can do that will be an immediate answer for them.
Yes, there's no immediate solution for them.
Exactly, exactly.
I guess that also transitions into what's the most fulfilling about your work?
For me, the best moments are what some people would probably think are little moments but people get jobs. People get mental healthcare. People get into substance abuse programs which are wonderful and great and huge successes, yes, but the moment that fill me the most are the little moments. For instance, one participant who used to be a physician before he made some mistakes and lost his license and his life changed drastically. I was dropping him off at the halfway house where he was residing and the radio had been on the whole time we had been in the car but we had been talking and it had been low so he hadn't heard it, but right before he got out of the car it was quiet and he could hear the radio until he realized it was NPR and he just stopped and said, "Is this NPR?" I was like, "Yes, it is." He said, "Can I just sit here a couple minutes and listen to NPR." He said, "I don't even know the last time I listened to NPR." He said, "I obviously wasn't listening to it in prison or in jail, and I can't listen to it in the halfway house because the guys would run me out of the house for trying to listen to that, so can we just listen?" I was like, "Sure." So, we just sat there for maybe two or three minutes, heard the end of whatever story was on, and he's like, "Okay," and he got out of the car with like this smile on his face and went on with his day, and it's those kind of moments where we kind of help, for lack of a better terminology, remind our participants of their humanity and remind them of the person they truly are, not the person that their mistakes and bad decisions are trying to tell them they are because some of our participants had been in and out of jail and prisons. They'd been incarcerated over thirty times and so they've constantly– they're told, "This is all you are, you'll never amount to anything." So, to be able to, kind of, show that they do matter, or remind them of something they got pleasure from in a previous life, to me, that's the most rewarding moment to, kind of, see that light go on in their eyes, or that spark is– that's the best, to me, the best part of my job.
Yes, it seems to be your work is transitioning people from an incarcerated system into being, like, a full human in society with that freedom.
Exactly, one young guy we were working with. During the intake there are specific questions that we ask, but then I always go off script and ask other questions, and one thing I usually ask is, “What are your interests or your hobbies?” And this guy that I was talking to, he was early twenties, and he just looked at me like with this blank look on his face and he said, "I have no idea." He said, "I have been getting high and doing heroine since I was fifteen." He's like, "I don't remember what I used to like to do for fun." He's like, "That's something I need to figure out now for the first time." And that really, I was like, "Wow, I can't even imagine what that feels like." So yes, being able to, yes, the way I like to think about it, it's yes, it's like a holistic approach. It's these tangible goals but it's also the intangibles as well.
Does your program have work directly with people trying to find those parts of themselves, like that holistic approach? Or, do you refer them to people?
I mean– we– it's a mix, referrals– some of– depending on the skillsets or experience of what our volunteers are. They might be able to assist. Then a lot of times just in conversation we try to– we talk about steps we need to take for housing, ID, et cetera, but then I steer the conversation to things that are more well rounded and things that– not only that they need to accomplish but things they like to accomplish that aren't necessary to survival but are necessary to a happier life, a more fulfilling life for them.
1:09:09
Yes, in regards to what you're saying about them rehumanizing themselves, do you think that– I'm sorry, I'm blanking. Is there any work you do to help in society humanize them, or is it purely with the participants?
It's mainly with the participants but we do try to do, again, pre-COVID, a lot of, or as many as kind of awareness events in the community and we partner– We have a lot of different organizations throughout the community that we partner with. Some seem logical and, you know, other reentry organizations or social justice organizations, but some of our strongest partnerships are also with visual, like, there's an organization in New Brunswick called coLAB Arts.
Yeah, they’re in this project.
Oh, that's right. Sorry about that, coLAB. They're amazing because, when I first started this job, and heard that they had already been working on a project when I came on board and it was a dancer in residence for Neighbor Corps. I was like, "What?" But then as I learned about the project and, by that time, I think it was just about wrapped up, but I was like, that makes so much sense, that's so cool. Through coLAB we had done so many amazing visual arts or performing arts events, drawing awareness to the problems that returning residents face. We're also partners with The Visual Arts Center of New Jersey in Morristown and they actually– we worked with them and were able to do, before COVID, a pilot program in the jail bringing art into the jail, and doing classes might make it sound, like, too instructional but classes for incarcerated individuals, because in the jail there's not a whole lot of programming other than AA programming or anger management. It's very specific. It doesn't necessarily address that holistic approach and the social service director in the jail is all about holistic approach and preparing the person the best they can for reentry. So, we're able to partner with arts organizations that are able to help us with that mission of working on to help the person as a whole.
Yes, that's great. I was actually going to ask you about coLAB Arts.
Again, I'm sorry coLAB Arts.
coLAB Arts knows you love them.
They're amazing. For instance, a project that blew me away. It's called 48-Hour Musicals. I don't know if you're familiar with this?
No.
They select social justice non-profit organizations– just to maybe three, I think it was three or four, and they team a writer, a director, and then actors with an organization, and then that creative team has forty-eight hours to come up with a musical that tells a complete story tied into the mission of the organization, and when we were one of the selected organizations, it was absolutely amazing– just not only that, they were able to create this cohesive piece in only forty-eight hours, but the emotional impact that the different pieces, different musicals, had on the audience was absolutely amazing.
That's great. You were talking about the classes that it makes them take and then also the dancer in residence you said. That was, I assume that was for the–
Dancer in residence, like I said, it was wrapping up right when I was joining Neighbor Corps, but they had paired a dancer with Neighbor Corps, to prepare a dance performance that told this story of Neighbor Corps and we've also– we're currently, through coLAB, working with a graphic illustrator to create a graphic novel to, kind of, tell the story of reentry and Neighbor Corps and the reentry community, and so he, pre-pandemic, was meeting with participants and volunteers and staff members and network contacts to create this story that will be turned into a graphic novel, to create awareness.
That's really cool.
Yes, it's super cool and, like I said, normally, when you think of partnerships, you would think, "Oh, well you know, another reentry organization makes sense.” Or, “A food pantry makes sense, but what are you talking about an arts organization?" But it's– it just opens it up exponentially, the number of people that you can reach.
Yes, because everybody wants to go to the arts.
Exactly, exactly.
But although, at least like, just in my simple impatient in my brain, it sounds like a lot of these projects, as wonderful as they are, and I'd love to go see any of them, like, it sounds like they are for sort of exporting to the greater society to, like, have an inside look– to humanize your, I'm blanking on the word–
Participants.
Sorry, yes. I was just wondering if you know of your participants enjoying the art after today, like art had been created.
A lot of our participants do have an artistic side whether it's music or visual arts. There's a participant now, female participant, who I think is, I might be biased but I think is an excellent painter, and she's actually been hired or commissioned by, I can't remember if it was a school or an organization up where she is living right now, to do a mural, a large scale mural, and then she's also been doing smaller pieces for different groups organizations. So, it's been really great to see her take something she's passionate about and also make a little bit of money off of it, but–
Yes.
It was terrible. She was released the summer before this summer. Within, I would say, three months of being released, she lost her adult son and adult daughter both to drug overdoses, and through her art she was able to work. She's like, "I know I should really see some mental healthcare professionals." I was like, "Yes, you should," but she was able to use her art to work through a lot of that emotion and grief, and she really threw herself into her painting and the results, both the paintings as well as the work she was able to do mentally and emotionally, were amazing.
1:17:06
Going off of that, how have you seen the holistic approach, and the classes you give to inmates and stuff, how do you see that manifest in that way? Have any of them really taken it to heart and created characteristics out of that?
You know we launched– we helped launch a yoga program in the jail that ran for a couple of years in the jail and occasionally– and it wasn't just for Neighbor Corps participants and it was open to whoever– and females initially, and a couple of the women who participated in the class reached out to us after they were released because they received information during the yoga class and they would commented on how they had never done yoga before, being in jail, but they hoped that they would be disciplined enough to continue with it because it was pushing them to move their bodies in ways they had never done before and take them outside of their comfort zone and, at the same time, kind of causing them to kind of slow their life down and not always just hustle, hustle, hustle, but to take some time out to just be. So, those comments were really awarding to hear.
Alright, thank you. Also, actually, I think we're nearing the end of it. I only have a couple of questions left, so this is great but okay, so one of the big ones was, a closer question is, do you have any hopes for the future of the program? Like, Neighbor Corps.
Yes, and this might surprise you. I hope that we do not grow too much.
Oh. I mean, I think they– Like geographically?
I mean size, like, as far as– It's interesting because financially, we're funded by a small grant from the county and then donations which are kind of few and far between, but– and so, yes, on one hand, it would be great to have all kinds of money coming in from different grants and funding but, at the same time, those grants and funding opportunities come with stipulations and requirements that, in extra reporting, that eats away at the time spent providing the service and the connections to our participants. I think Neighbor Corps– and I talk to my boss about this– I've talked with the guy, the gentleman who actually founded Neighbor Corps about this and I think Neighbor Corps really functions best as a small program that partners with larger programs. Where we have a client base and then we can tap into the funding or the services of our partner organizations instead of us trying to get all this funding and trying to do everything under our own roof. I really think that by staying small, we'll be able to keep those personal relationships we have with our participants and know our participants as well as we do and connect them to experts in other areas like housing, I don't want housing to become a Neighbor Corps function, that's not our wheelhouse. There are people that do housing and do housing really well and we happen to be partnered with them already, so let's utilize that and build on that relationship.
Yes, well that makes sense being specialized a mile deep instead of just doing everything.
Exactly, exactly, of course a little bit more money wouldn't hurt but, like I said, I don't want it to become this just– and I don't know that we're in danger of that but, if we are, I hope that the money goes elsewhere to other organizations.
You also said something about how to– when you get more grants and such and such– a lot of grants will come with stipulations like things that you have to. Can you expand on that? Because I personally do not know what that is.
For instance, in order– say we're applying for grant X, Y, Z, might say you need a staff person available certain hour like overnight hours or weekend hours, or you need a staff person that provides this particular service. That particular service might not be a service that we are the best to deliver, and so do we end up actually weakening what we're able to provide to our clients when there's an organization that's been doing it for years and years that we could just refer them to, and by having someone, or by having a staff member available overnight hours, are we then losing sight of being able to set boundaries, and are we then saying we are now constantly available to– and there's no more boundary setting and I do think boundary setting is important. Not only for the staff and the volunteers, but also for the participants to realize, "Oh, that's right, I do need to be respectful of people's time and as I move forward in my job hunt, I will have to realize that there are appointments and times to do things and I can't just show up for my interview whenever I feel like showing up.” So, I think that while, of course, funding is great, I also think it could also be– make things more difficult and, kind of, take something away from the, like I said, the relationships we have with our clients.
That makes sense, yes. And then, to expand on this question, are there any hopes or is there anything you would like to see shape the greater world?
Oh, where to begin, no. I mean.
Harder.
I would like, I would love to see changes in policy especially around drug charges. For instance, and you may already know this so I apologize for being redundant but if you have a distribution charge you're automatically disqualified from receiving housing assistance and general assistance. Even though you've served your time, you've paid your– you've done your time, you've done your punishment. If you have a distribution charge, finding housing is so much more difficult or finding assistance with housing, getting financial assistance with housing. Whereas, if you murder someone and then get out of prison, you have access to the housing, which I think they should, but I think that the people with the distribution charges should too, because they're not being setup for success. They're just being punished even though they're out of prison. So, changes in policy there would be ideal. Increased attention to the lack of affordable housing, truly affordable housing, would be wonderful to help combat the homeless situation and, um, help mental healthcare. Treating people with mental healthcare issues, like people with mental healthcare issues as opposed to just taking them and throwing them in jail, or prison, and expecting their mental state to improve while incarcerated. But let's address the mental healthcare cause of problems and really give some attention to that. They have drug court as an alternative to going to prison for people who meet certain criteria with drug charges. They could do– there's no reason they couldn't put the same attention on mental healthcare instead of sending them off– get them into the proper treatment and programming that they need to be in and on the proper meds.
1:26:36
Yes, you know this has actually arisen a smaller question but that's okay. I know these are supposed to be closer questions. I'm very interested now if you're program ever encounters people who need affordable housing but they might have mental health issues, too, or do you just refer, if they show up, to other resources.
Oh, we have several participants who need housing or need– whether it's housing or whatever the need may be, who have mental health issues. Our participants, everything is self-reported. So, if there are participants that say, "Yes, I am diagnosed with X, Y, and Z. PTSD, bipolar." We're like, "Okay." Then others, who say, "No, I have no mental healthcare problems and, again, I am not a mental healthcare professional but a lot of times I'm thinking, "I think, maybe something's going on here." There are some participants that their mental health just presents an obstacle to us being able to really help them. There's one guy in particular I'm thinking of, we've been working with him, he's been with us for a while and I don't know what comes out, what is true or false, what he speaks. I don't know if when he speaks, if he thinks he's telling the truth or if he's aware that he's not telling the truth and is wanting to just pull one over, or I have no idea, but it makes it truly, truly hard to help him. And his volunteer that he works with and I used to, kind of, beat ourselves up over it, but we have finally gotten to this place where he was, he hadn't been locked back up. He was still alive and he, for the most part, has a roof over his head. He does go in and out of periods of homelessness, but that was at the point all we were able to do for him and are able to do for him because he does not seem to be willing to really be dealing with his apparent mental health issues and so it does. There's other instances, too, but he's the most, I guess the example that really jumps to mind, and even there were times where he's released but he would have follow up court dates when he was out for different issues, and he would ask me if I would come and speak on his behalf to the judge which I do often or did when courts were open, but I never did for him because I could not say to the judge with any certainty what he had truly done as far as steps moving forward, because he told me he had done certain things but I had no reason to think they had actually been done. So, I was never able to go and advocate for him because I couldn't. Ultimately, I couldn't and, yes, his mental healthcare is really, it's definitely an obstacle.
I understand that situation is really complicated. I wouldn't know what a solution was to that in general. Do people– their mental health obscures you from really helping them? Doing your job with them? Do you think that's a failure of the mental health resources that are available, like, the lack of them maybe, or do you think that's a factor of just there's only so much we could do and they need to come to us for help, or is it, like, both?
I feel that somewhere along the way, especially with this particular individual– I don't know if he slipped through the cracks, someone wasn't listening closely enough to the stories he's told to realize, "Wait, something's not adding up here." There's definitely a tendency when they're in jail to, I think, give certain– because when we ask them if they're on any meds, there are certain meds that are repeated over and over again that are given while in jail, and I think the tendency is, give something that will just kind of, yes, kind of, knock them out or make them complacent, but not necessarily the meds they should be on, and I understand that jails are hectic and prisons are hectic and so much is going on, but we're not helping the incarcerated population or the community at large by not addressing and really working on people's mental healthcare.
I'm sorry, it just gave me another question, but do you have any thoughts, then, from just the work you do because you're on the other side of the prison industrial complex which I don't even know if you term it as that. I don't know what your thoughts are.
I mean, it's definitely a money-making system.
Yes.
Without a doubt– and one professional here, a mental healthcare professional here in town who I've gotten to know, she has experienced– she has worked in mental healthcare in state prisons and she really, I mean, I knew things were bad but she opened my eyes to– as far as mental healthcare in state prisons just how little time and money is directed towards those needs, and she also, kind of, opened my eyes towards the stigma about having a mental healthcare, a mental health problem. How that would keep some inmates from trying to access the minimal resources that were available but, by-in-large, it's money, money, money, money, along every step of the carceral system.
Yes, cool. I don't know if I'm supposed to say this in an interview but I agree. (inaudible)
They can edit that part out.
1:33:38
So yes, and then also the smaller question I got from this initial bigger question was you also talked about, you'd like to see changes in policy about distributors. Release not being given access to housing assistance. I was just wondering how have you encountered that as, like, a problem. Has anybody come to you like, “I would love assistance,” but then you have to report them of this or–
Oh, most are already aware of it when they come and, say we're doing the initial meeting and we haven't even necessarily started the actual intake yet, but they'll automatically lead with, "I need help with housing because I can't get assistance because these stupid distribution charges." So, most are already aware of the strikes that they have against them right off the bat. And yes, without– we have countless participants with distribution charges that aren't able to access some benefits that the other participants would be able to.
So, then, how are they still your participants? Like what can we give them access to then?
With that– and then we try to help them find other avenues for assistance through the government or job hunting and paying for an apartment and just whatever their goals are. Whether it's housing, employment, ID, guitar lessons, reuniting with family or friends that they might have lost track of along the way or that might have kind of withdrawn their support along the way. Even if we're not able to help them check one goal off of their list, there's going to be something else that they're working on, or that they'd like to reach, that we can still help them with.
Well, that's still good at least.
Yes, definitely.
That's not just a dead end.
Yes.
But also, and I guess this is to– I guess to leave this wonderful discussion that evolved with this question, to a bigger question that I also just thought of again. I swear this will end. But this, I don't know if this interview per se is going to be in the coLAB art project, but, if it is in some form, is there anything you would like for greater society who have seen art program based off something, just to know about your work and who you work with?
I think the important thing people need to realize about folks who have been in, or are still in, the carceral or in the carceral system is that they don't necessarily look like– There's no cookie cutter description. There's no cookie cutter appearance. Chances are someone knows someone whose involved in the carceral system and they probably don't even know they know the person. It could be their neighbor. It could be their uncle. It could be anyone. When I was leaving the hotel I was working at to come and take this job, a friend of mine at the hotel said, "Why are you leaving this job?" Not that that job was great but, "Why are you leaving this job to go work with that population?" Or, the people in jail, or people who just got out of jail and I said, "That could so easily be me." The vast majority of the time, the only thing that separates the person I'm talking to and me is the fact that that person got caught for their decision. I had made plenty of bad decisions, I have done plenty of illegal things. I knock on some wood somewhere, just didn't get caught and that's the only thing that separates me from that other person. That would be me on the other side of the table. I think it's important that when you look at the topic of reentry and incarceration that you remember these people they are people. They've made some bad decisions. A lot of times those bad decisions have roots based in addiction or mental healthcare and those issues and areas need to be addressed and focused on. Not just the bad decision that was made– and it's important to humanize and let people tell their stories and let them make their stories be known to people that might not have any concept or been exposed to anybody whose been incarcerated before, and I was just saying. We used to do events and I would get up and spew data and facts and figures and I bored myself to tears and then we shifted and we're like, "Let's just let the participants tell their stories." And our events got so much more exciting and interesting and we got so much good feedback, and it's all just about letting stories be told and letting people know the problems and obstacles that are in the way of the returning residents as they're trying to get back on their feet.
That's great. That's wonderful. I think that's a perfect place to end.
Okay.
If you're okay with that.
Oh no, it's great thank you.
Yes, thank you, too.
Definitely.
It's a great interview.
No, thank you. I'll write a rave review right now.
Great, it will help my Yelp score. (inaudible) I'm trying to have five stars consistently.
Oh, that's funny, well great. Have a good day and a great weekend and I'm sure as I think we're supposed to still– scheduling more interviews, I'll hopefully see you again soon.
Yes, hopefully, yes, you too.
Okay.
Bye.
Great, bye bye.
Bye.